As for asking for promotions, I disagree that you must always be asking. For example, see http://www.intropsych.com/ch07_cognition/learning_curve.html. And, ironically, some titles make your manager automatically have to adjust your level after a certain time, in order to comply with certainly HR guidelines.- Buy your principal a coffee, hear everything, and dont follow everything. It's a question your boss gets asked so it's not a surprise to them. Did you triangulate the feedback? and as many others posters said: if you are worry too much about promotion chances are you will keep worrying. This topic didn't elicit nearly as many comments as I would have expected. I think there's only one thing I would add, from the perspective of having been promoted from L59 to L64 in a 6-year period in one org (I left MS in 2006).Sometimes things within an org will turn to complete crap, and either there's not an option to leave or you may not want to. You will make your management look good and the levels will come. Avoid long-winded multi-point e-mails, boil down your points as succinctly and efficiently as possible. And your manager will not hate you for thinking about switching -- if you are a great employee to begin with, he will just want to keep you around. The higher you go, the longer it takes. I wasn't sure I was going to get out of a couple of those situations but after everyone of them, I was stronger and smarter.Take the challenge and go after tough problems. Typically if you can accomplish only 5 such improvements, it would be hard for your manager not to consider you for next step. Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer. 6 years ago I developed what I have been supporting since. These guys are typically outcome of recent hiring sprees. Is there any way to get to 63 w/o leaving and coming back? I suggest understanding why it is "No" first, truthfully accepting the point-of-view as pissed off as it may make you, and then having a self-directed action-plan to get on track. Think about why they're able to do that.-jcr. * It is true that working for the promotion should not be your only driver, but it is important for it to be "a" driver -- of course you should enjoy what you are doing while working to achieve that next level, but remember that you are not there to become a bench-warmer. The estimated base pay is $243,438 per year. I think that a lot of what you wrote was spot on, although the situation varies somewhat across the company. Finally, take heart and dont become too discouraged if this is taking a little longer than it seems like it should. Then, he told those have been canceled. These posts are provided "as-is" with no warranties and confer no rights. I believe that the most fundamental difference between level 62 and 63 is in the realm of EQ (emotional quotient, see the book Working With Emotional Intelligence" by Goleman). One of the interesting things about the level structure that I find interesting is that you are always expected to perform higher than your level. Only one can emerge, and not everyone can be a senior simultaneously. Learn How to State Your Case and Earn Your Raise, Climb the Ladder With These Proven Promotion Tips, A Guide to Negotiating the Salary You Deserve, How to Prepare for Your Interview and Land the Job. But anyway, EOF for that angle. "I actually find the content of this post to be superficial, fairly naive and not reflective of my experience having moved through the ranks from 59 to >65. If it is "Absolutely!" At Microsoft, the levels start at 59 and go beyond 80. This is a great topic! Don't be the roadblock. I know devs who got in at the wrong level and paying the price because they didnt negotiate their level correctly when they joined. Director of Business Development for ATALIAN Global Services, in a senior leadership role based in Singapore driving sustainable growth in Asia. Youre hanging onto the bar swing back and forth feeling pretty secure. IBM got their position by focusing on the customer. Senior->principal->partner are the level bands, 63/64->65/66/67, 68/69/70. When (if) you are then promoted to 62, you are not expected to continue performing at a level 62 level, but rather a level 63 level.The reason that you have to perform at a new level before reaching it is to avoid the Peter Principle, being people promoted up to their level of incompetence. Help make it more accurate by adding yours. L68 would not be referred to as Director. You forgot "never ask for a promotion".The one other thing that helped me go from L59 through >L64 was an absolute dedication to the strongest leaders, one level at a time. Leadership: pro-active leadership that convinces team members of the future direction and even helps to . This is obviously difficult to manage. . This is hard for your manager -- he probably doesn't have a clear idea of what it will take to make the case. One question a manager will think about before promoting you is how many times he had to clean up after you pissed off someone else - especially if it's someone on another team. Great post and comments. Some considerations, based on my own career:- The best way to get to level 63 is moving around, and getting promotions as you move. Tips for getting them on your side:1) Ask for Exceeded. Here are my thoughts on the Level 62 to Level 63 transition in the product groups: 1. >Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. (Senior Project Manager), with 63 (Senior Project Manager) level earning average salary of $247k along with $38k worth of stock options. I'm just going to try and emphasize a few points here:* As mentioned by many folks, it is important to own your career and hence plan you promotion, discuss it with your manager, and most importantly follow up on it. These two lines really serve to summarize the incoherent blithering that was jcr's post.Whoa, really? The reason: there are a number of factors of success that are common at all levels (see #6 and #7 below). Microsoft's '08 Mistakes: The Software Giant's Three Errors http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/121908-microsofts-08-mistakes-the-software.html?hpg1=bnJust three? And a knife-fight for L65 (some other day). Me? The team that gave me the Dev Lead title made a bet on me, and they were not disappointed, since I worked hard to prove myself at that title (despite having to wait a little longer for a level promotion). >> You forgot "never ask for a promotion".This is better written as "Ask what specific things you are lacking in, which are preventing you from being promoted to the next level". That is the guy to beat. They are 100% star material. I will mis-direct and confuse you with hearsay. At a basic level, in a company the size of Microsoft, the higher you go, the less you contribute individually and the more you contribute by your impact on an organization - hiring the right people, setting clear and correct goals, driving alignment and execution. They will have thought this out. The "Most Likely Range" represents values that exist within the 25th and 75th percentile of all pay data available for this role. To know the real title you have to use headtrax and look for the Standard Title of the position. I definitely want to read more soon.Sincerely yoursSteave Markson. I give you the example from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/awaits "A busy day awaits" as evidence.So one legitimate missing punctuation mark, one matter of verbal interpretation, one popular idiom, and one completely correct phrase. 4. Great post! below 63 one has low influence and above 64, it is more strategizing and less execution.Overall, my experience has been that promotion is the effect of results and good work. Secondly, finding a suitable mentor to help them overcome that weakness. Why cannot we have our address title reflect our level as everybody else in the company?Not giving quite as snide a response as the previous posterAsk your management. My queries on any specific guidance would get no response or the response that youre a 62 and you should be able to figure it out. Like any organization MS has its own unique culture and cannot possibly be all things for all people. Salesmanship is extremely important. Answer to second question is never ever explicitly try to make yourself known to hierarchy above your manager. It's a knife fight to 63. Thank you for reviewing my profile. After that, I was given a team that was in trouble quality wise 6 months before shipping. I've seen L65's who can't own a cardboard box, let alone a room. Revise if needed. When I finally figured out how to play well with others and was able to show some major cross-group gains in addition to my own leet prod dev skills, that's when I became a 63.63 to 64 was a bit of a slog -- I'd say more like a full-frontal assault on lazy management, actually :). If you can make the argument about the job - and you're in a position of strength, obviously harder now than in years past, you can make the case. You can work hard and grind it out. It operates through the following business segments: Productivity and Business Processes,. Harder for L64. Until you can be honest with yourself (and it's not fun, trust me) you will be stuck doing what you're doing and your complaining will be the glue keeping you there. I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. So dont try to be joker just to get attention.Now of course, this is all just the theory. Levels are a bit easier to achieve in MCS. I suspect they'll make it someone's job to fix it, because it is widely held as a good idea in the company right now. So yes, Mini's list should get you to 63 anywhere. It can be a really discouraging time in your career, but if you can get past it youre headed for another amazing growth curve like the one that got you to level 62! If you are in office, you will have lots of experience promoting people up to 62 but after that it's a rare event. Show me you can do this and want to learn more and you'll be on my radar as a possibility.6. (1) Oh, please. Tech savvy yet entrepreneurship minded hence able to see things from . No one is born an experienced mgr and even the most experienced mgrs are not perfect. Working with high EQ allows you to collaborate better. I've been at Microsoft six years.I've never spent one second honestly thinking about my career or how to get a promotion or anything like that. The Goldstars have already been canceled for this quarter.Next, I believe this post will most likely be useful for those who entered MS as intern/college hires. Here are some things from my perspective.1. Don't like branching strategy? What's worse is the noise this creates. Skip-levels will not tolerate people who are not team players.Finally if your manager is new or at your level, the strategy is the same. How do you ensure there is no conflict of interest. Ultimately, I decided to leave the company. When I was an IC, it was tough technical problems or simply critical problems that no one else wanted. I've been hearing some stealth layoffs around the SQL and BOSG groups, around 70+ people were given 6(?) "This is the lament of every person in every big company everywhere it's usually a combination of truth (most of us are capable of more than the roles we're currently filling) and hubris (if I had a nickel for ever junior person who over-estimated what they were capable of I'd be retired). Microsoft Salary. Here's to you! Fourth, repeat ad infinitum. Shock and awe awaits [sic].Four errors in grammar and punctuation in a post of just 14 words? Like many technology companies, Microsoft uses levels to indicate seniority for employees, including engineers. But more likely youre displaying the hallmark of a weak performer described in the article of the same name (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/01/18/MN73840.DTL). Be the Rosh Gadol Microsoftie. There are 12 Directors in my sub and over 1000 people all scoping to one day be a Lvl 63reality, most people will leave before they get that far. Two years ago I realized that the MS treadmill (trying to become what my dysfunctional manager wanted) was making me nuts. As long as that's the case, I doubt anything would change.The method that this is done is troubling also. This is a problem, at least up to level 65. I'm not even thinking about level 63 at this point. At 63, he has to be the one who tells me what the next thing for the product should be. Real HR managers from Microsoft would have just three [sic]s in a post of that length. If it does, are you demonstrating success at that next level already and do people know about it? I've achieved level 65 in a field technical role and it wasn't that hard. Kudos to you for posting it. Levels are all about perception.I know devs who are underlevelled and devs who are over-levelled. Don't be afraid to talk to your skip level manager regularly in such a situation, not to get promoted but because he can better help you grow.4. You've told me you're not willing to have the hard career conversation with me and/or that you're not willing to do what I told you needed to be done when we had that conversation. All the money making groups cut 10% of the work force. Great Post! Hi,Now that the Annual review is approaching, I wanted to seek tips on justification putforth to the manager to move from L60-L61. Isn't morale over the holidays going to be just wonderful? Keep my word. If it isn't, well don't waste everyone's time building the wrong thing.When you think of it this way, you'll anticipate what your manager needs, you'll anticipate what your skip-level needs, and you'll be doing what they need even before they know they need it. If he thought you were trouble already, though, telling him you are thinking about leaving is like asking for a ticket out of there.7. Experienced Operations & Project Manager with a demonstrated history of working in the financial services industry. When you take on the toughest problems that risk the product and make that problem go away, they are happy. Just ensure that you do the absolute best in whatever is thrown at you and promotion will take care of itself. Let's connect and I will happily share more about my background and accomplishment and how I can contribute to the success of your organization. So most new hires at MS are L63 by default and they obviously don't have to work at it :).I actually find the content of this post to be superficial, fairly naive and not reflective of my experience having moved through the ranks from 59 to >65.I would not give most of this advice to our campus hires as any kind of roadmap. Find a way to make or save them money. I think it's safe to say that I "own" the group of people under L63 in my group, but I usually take that as an opportunity for mentorship as opposed to an opportunity to poach someone else's cool project. If you find yourself in this spot - get a good external mentor to help you manage through it if you don't feel you can have this conversation with your manager.4. This is the first year I have spent more than 2 years at a level (L61) and still not gotten a promotion. Microsoft is a Technology Giant and has been the biggest Technology Company in recent years. Microsoft Software Engineering Manager salary levels ranges from 63 (SDE Lead) upto 80 (Corporate VP), with 80 (Corporate VP) level earning average salary of $4851k along with $3675k worth of stock options. Even with all good intentions, they can even be ineffective mentors (although I still highly recommend the mentoring program, as long as you change your mentor every year). It's a lot better than folks being ambivalent about your success or failure, right? What to do?The remaining is either a) absorb into other org (say A)b) if A doesn't need testers, then VP will instruct them to find another position in 6 weeks. Establish SD/VSTF branching steering committee and send out monthly report. Highly effective Finance leadership; ability to deliver results by leading through example while setting high personal standards; Partnering with the business and influencing . After that, I was given a team that was dysfunctional and the most problematic area of the product - now its the area that customers rave about and the team is running smoothly.The bottom line is that takes (1) very hard work (2) you need to build your skills (3) personality to drive the solution in spite of the process and (4) demand excellence from others - including managing out those that will never deliver quality (some folks are net losses to the team).I always hear the whining from folks that get stuck at level 62/63 but when those tough challenges are out there, they don't volunteer and they certainly don't go looking for the biggest challenges. Are all management titles and the name used to call then in different orgs can change. The CSPs are a good attempt to define each level, but anyone who is looking at the CSPs and saying I do that, and that, , but Im not getting promoted is almost certainly missing the point. I am working towards it would say am there 75% of the way. But the people in the team are below 65. It's because you were playing catch-up to Apple, and playing Machiavellian games with the media companies instead of working on the issues that your customers were complaining about.When will MS learn this lesson? Only one can emerge, and not everyone can be a senior simultaneously. And I'm hiring, yes, in this economy. Is there a way one can dream of getting promoted in this noxious environment which is the oabg? To change Microsoft so that it is small and efficient, and therefore more in line with your thinking?Are you changing your stance because you're leaving the 'hoi polloi' behind? If they can, pay attention: They don't even know the area as well as your superiors, and you need to spend more time covering your bases. Our entire unit was let go but we were moved to different groups in the org. Agree with all the comments that this is a great post, and was just as true 5 years ago as it is now.My story, which might help the college kids: I began my career at MS out of college as a 10/59, rocketed to 62 - and then sat.I left in 2002 and started building a career at other places, and can now look back at when I left, slap my hand on my head, and say of course I wasn't promoted - I did nothing to build a positive, defensible relationship with my skip-level mgr, and my real influence outside of my individual team was nonexistent. A Senior Director gets a basic salary package of $190,000, which gets as high . Directors are usually senior principals (level 66, 67) or at Partner level. "I'm in the 61 bucket and currently struggling with my team for many months. Ah, dude, my boss is in the way of my promotion. Any suggestions on how to focus on this. And in my experience they are *eager* to get your skills and your lower level payroll expense! MS is a carrot and stick culture with some heavy emphasis on stick. I sat there at L64 for 5+ years. Be very careful, because some people may tell you about this or that great thing they did, and only mention that they are (or were) married to this General Manager, or that they have been in the team since it was only 2 people, and the other person today is a VP. This will bump you off the fast-track 96% of the time.No matter how bad things are, always be positive, and provide a recommendation for how to address each problem. These turtles gets promoted eventually just based on time spent at MS and because they werent doing anything wrong even though they dont really meet CSP criteria. How long can someone stay at the same level before they get blacklisted? Mini -- you left out the most important option, which I took. I basically lost 5 years of growth due to a bad manager and my own unwillingness to own my career. Will there be budget? the higher you go, the bigger deal this is - at least to where i have gotten.Finally, not everybody will be good in every role. And to your boss. Its, actually, quite a short list. If youve capped out at Level 62 then MS is probably not a great fit for you. This means there are 24 distinct job levels at Microsoft. This employer has claimed their Employer Profile and is engaged in the Glassdoor community. Outside of those two situations, I have never asked for a promotion. Also, go mine some of Dr. Brechner's Hard Code columns. Sometimes leaving MS is good. Then you're on the path to higher levels. "Next, I believe this post will most likely be useful for those who entered MS as intern/college hires. right? All these comments apply generally to any matured company and life in general. I've been hearing some stealth layoffs around the SQL and BOSG groups, around 70+ people were given 6(?) It is true you can always do that, go to Google, go to ABC, or whatever. What is the average promotion velocity for non-technical fields? Why does the company reward and keep these numbskull managers that hold people back? I think that everyone has a bad year or 2 and you should not get worried about spending a lot of years in one level unless you have been on the same team for a long time.So my advice is1. This is something that should happen on an ongoing basis.Unfortunately, it doesnt happen, and that is what frustrates a lot of people.Saying that you dont know what exactly an L63 is, but will know one when you see him is a big cop-out. The details in front of you are just details. Help Your Manager (and your team) Be Successful: No one has more influence over whether you get promoted than your immediate mgr. So one big part is do good work, but another is don't do bad work.I think it's a very good idea to ask for a promotion. It going to be more about survival in the current business climate. How about a thread on the current hiring/moving freeze, or on surviving the New Ice Age? Barring extraordindary circumstances each year you will get the "welcome to our group" evaluation.Don't forget the aunts and uncles. If you think you will follow the management career path then get in such role as early as possible. Ultimately humans make decisions either by heart or brain. I made it to L63 in a year (I was probably under leveled when I arrived). My boss even made mistakes. They didn't want to plateau, but that is just where they were given MS talent pool. In MCS, soft skills are often more important than hard skills since you work with customers (often angry ones), sales (often under pressure and looking for someone to blame). Senior Director Levels at Microsoft 63 (Senior Manager) 64 Principal EM (Principal Director of Engineering) 66 Senior Director (67) GM, Partner (SDE Group Manager) 69 VP (70) Corporate VP (80) Executive VP (81) View 7 More Levels United States No region found, search all locations Greater Seattle Area San Francisco Bay Area View All Data There are definitely projects you can work on with your manager to increase your visibility, but if things don't happen right away just keep at it.Your manager should be able to give you fairly specific feedback on where you stand in your skip-level's eyes. Ask any old mainframer what it was like to be an IBM customer back in the day. Amazon Up until L63, you can pretty continue to be promoted based on raw talent to get things done smartly and efficiently. As HR Director, Claire helps drive the outstanding business impact, cultural transformation, and growth of Microsoft in the UK. "The hardest point for me to bear is that I am young, capable of doing so much more, and absolutely dying to do more. This makes it very easy to feel underleveled, because the 6 people that started 3 weeks before you might take up the 2 promotion spots available per year for 3 years (numbers all made up).You also, at least in my experience, aren't really given feedback on when you're performing at a level that *could* be promoted. Its nice to see constructive advice and stories from everyone.I'm in the 61 bucket and currently struggling with my team for many months. Will a team that needs exactly the skills and interests that you have pass on you because of some HR guideline? This is where I agree with Mini regarding taking MSFT back to the good ol' lean, mean, and efficient company we enjoyed. Why are we doing x and not y? All of us have been asked to move to India by our parent company. I went from level 62 to level 65 in that time. "Sad but true. 3. There are the clear execptions and I think you can see this more on the engineering side than sales and marketing.One other piece of advice - be mindful of the impression you make on your bosses peers and others in senior levels of the organizations. You dont have the same experience or abilities to perform in a core STB senior level role. I hope Mini returns from his vacation soon :(The Windows division has a large number of people that were promoted to "Senior" PM/Test/Dev in the past year. IBM pulled themselves out of their decline by focusing on their customers. I have only required two strategies. I have some colleagues now stuck with a career that they dont really want because they move up too much. If you want to advance and you are not a "favorite underling", your first and most important job is this: figure out how to become a "favorite underling". I've also worked for great managers, and worked with great people on my team. Get a free, personalized salary estimate based on today's job market. During the start-up boom, I considered leaving. the answer is simple - take on more. "2) Peel the onion. You can switch jobs internally and get leveled up (typically 6-12 months after) - but make sure you have the conversation with the manager as to what is the expected level and what is the cap. Can we talk about the recent hiring of a new OSG head, as well as ideas on how to fix online? If you can learn to do this you become incredibly valuable.5. I'm there. For others, the picture will not be so clear and they may place more weight on perceptions or a set of isolated incidents. He/she and you should know exactly what you need to do to get to the next level. Great topic. keep in mind mentors are not one size fit's all. And on one total-eclipse-rare occasion, I've been able to be answer the follow-up question: will they reach L65 and say with confidence: Absolutely. Any idea on when is this going to change? Its usually comes down to do it and be unhappy or leave. It is a dream company for many people. In my group that's the really tough one. Mine is inside sales Azure. How long do people usually sit at L62 in MCS? The second was threat (I have a serious offer outside the company that I am taking). The problem is you can't tell if you've done something to piss him off or if he's doing it because he has to. I started in 2001 @ L62. Here is a nice place to start :-)http://guestgame.com/. Give the employee directives and start documenting when they fail so a case can be brought to get rid of them if it comes to that. After all, they are thinking through if you will be a good peer and will be easy to work with (and make their lives better in some way). L68 is partner, or you may see GM. Find out if you have a positive trajectory in the stack ranking. Just pick one Job id, prepare for it and then go for internal. While cash bonuses stay relatively stable as a percentage of salary over the course of a Microsoft employee's career, stock compensation can rise to nearly 20% of annual income at higher levels, according to the crowdsourced data. The L64 guys should be able to influence their skip level orgs plus one or two groups outside of the skip org. Framed on my former VP's wall:"High-level guys are low-level guys that don't whine.". Given that quite a few Microsofties are going to find themselves locked into their current group for a while, the ability to succeed by swinging on the vines to a new group is going to be rare. clinical research associate entry level jobs near me; new laws for first time violent offenders in louisiana. :)Then, over the next 2 years, I learned the magic of 65: it's not just about playing *well* with others, it's about making every team you work with great and helping them do their best work. The first was the barter (a position exists that I qualify for - give it to me now and I will commit to staying with the team another year. If the answer for you is "No" and you don't like that, well, what are you going to do? Don't obsess over what is in front of you. Next, advertise your new branching strategy in your peer groups. great post. You have to be extremely faithful to your management while at the same time carefuly growing your broad influence to your manager's piers. And I appreciate you screening out the non-productive whining posts. Continue to do so until you've slapped yourself silly to the point that you're not complaining about how other folks must just be connected or political or adept at the finer art of buttock tongue massage. A broad perspective matters.3) This is all about stack rank. Senior finance leader with several years of experience as a member of executive teams within large Australian blue chip and global multi-national companies with broad and diverse background and wide-ranging experience.

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